>Let’s start with examples of whose speech Gazan’s bill would criminalize, if repeated in the future: Indigenous-Canadians who have publicly “condoned,” or at least partly justified, residential schools.
>In 1998, Rita Galloway, a teacher who grew up on the Pelican Lake First Nation in Saskatchewan and then-president of the First Nations Accountability Coalition, was [interviewed](https://www2.uregina.ca/education/saskindianresidentialschools/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/IndianResidentialSchools1.pdf) about residential schools. She noted that she had “many friends and relatives who attended residential schools,” and argued, “Of course there were good and bad elements, but overall, their experiences were positive.”
Why are we being subject to this kind of conformist extremism? This is basically the far-left telling us to shut off our brains cause they’ll do the thinking for us.
Expensive_Peak_1604 on
Can this country please stop criminalizing speech and telling us what we MUST think and MUST say about certain topics? That’d be swell.
Intrepid_Ad322 on
Like it or not, free speech is neither healthy nor good for democracy. In fact, too much free speech in a democracy allows for dangerous ideas to get more truck than they otherwise would have, thereby weakening democracy. We, the masses, are simply not well-informed enough, or capable of the required critical thought, to distinguish mis/malinfo from the truth. Therefore, some speech needs to be criminalized for the good of our democracy, and there’s nobody in a better position to decide what speech should and should not be allowed than our government.
This whole thing reeks of ‘a lot people are starting to pick up on the bullshit narratives being peddled about Canada’s indigenous populace so we’re just going to shut the whole conversation down’.
waerrington on
If it silences any voices, it’s not OK. We need to codify Freedom of Speech in the Constitution.
Popular-Row4333 on
Here’s a crazy concept. How about we properly fund our schools and educate and give critical thinking skills so the population is smart enough to smell out BS and misinformation, instead of taking away our rights and marching closer and closer to 1984 by the day?
Wild ideas, I know.
Javaddict on
So people can’t be trusted to discuss and speak about complex topics, but they are supposed to be trusted enough as sovereign citizens and vote for their representatives to govern by their consent?
LegionaryTitusPullo_ on
I’m confused …
“Where excavations have taken place, no burials related to residential schools have been found.
In other words, there are no “missing children.” The fate of some children may have been forgotten with the passage of generations—forgotten by their own families, that is.“
Criminalizing views is wild. We should probably be careful.
xNOOPSx on
Why do so many in power seem to not understand nuance? Most things aren’t black or white. Forcing perspective either way does a disservice to everyone, yet this seems to be a shockingly popular narrative. Why? We need civilized debate and discussion about complex matters. We need far less of this “believe this perspective or else” bullshit.
Why are so many so focused on groups rather than individuals? There were abhorrent people who were in charge at some residential schools and they did awful things, but there were most certainly abhorrent teachers or leaders in the general school system as well.
IllustriousAnt485 on
Look. I believe it’s important for facts to be acknowledged, the sentiment and spirit of this are not malignant. However, criminalizing thought would absolutely create not just resentment but hatred and it would be directed at the most vulnerable populations of indigenous people. This would be a terrible mistake and would set reconciliation back decades. We do not need to create reasons for people who are neutral towards one another change to actively start hating each other. Huge mistake.
PatriotofCanada86 on
As long as it has all the same defences as the current Holocaust denial laws and only then I can approve.
(2.1) Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Marginal note:Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Marginal note:Defences — subsection (2.1)
(3.1) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2.1)
(a) if they establish that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, they expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds they believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, they intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of antisemitism toward Jews.” End quote.
notsoinsaneguy on
I know a lot of folks feel strongly that the truth will always win out, and so making hateful speech illegal doesn’t matter. I know everyone here is aware that the residential school system was an evil thing, and the debate in this thread is all about why people should be forced to agree. Unfortunately, what will end up happening is that as time goes by people will forget or reduce the atrocities we committed.
A recent poll of Americans shows that 20% of young people believe the holocaust didn’t happen, compared with 0% of people aged 65+. [(See page 103)](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf) The reality is that the residential school system is almost certainly the darkest stain on Canada’s history, but in terms of harm it can’t hold a candle to the holocaust. If 20% of young American adults are able to believe that the holocaust was fake only 80 years later, you had better believe that the residential school system will be forgotten about in the next 80 years if we do nothing to ensure people remember.
If the truth matters, we need to legislate it. If we want people to remember that we did a bad thing, we need to prevent people from muddying the waters.
13 Comments
>Let’s start with examples of whose speech Gazan’s bill would criminalize, if repeated in the future: Indigenous-Canadians who have publicly “condoned,” or at least partly justified, residential schools.
>In 1998, Rita Galloway, a teacher who grew up on the Pelican Lake First Nation in Saskatchewan and then-president of the First Nations Accountability Coalition, was [interviewed](https://www2.uregina.ca/education/saskindianresidentialschools/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/IndianResidentialSchools1.pdf) about residential schools. She noted that she had “many friends and relatives who attended residential schools,” and argued, “Of course there were good and bad elements, but overall, their experiences were positive.”
Why are we being subject to this kind of conformist extremism? This is basically the far-left telling us to shut off our brains cause they’ll do the thinking for us.
Can this country please stop criminalizing speech and telling us what we MUST think and MUST say about certain topics? That’d be swell.
Like it or not, free speech is neither healthy nor good for democracy. In fact, too much free speech in a democracy allows for dangerous ideas to get more truck than they otherwise would have, thereby weakening democracy. We, the masses, are simply not well-informed enough, or capable of the required critical thought, to distinguish mis/malinfo from the truth. Therefore, some speech needs to be criminalized for the good of our democracy, and there’s nobody in a better position to decide what speech should and should not be allowed than our government.
Just look at what’s going on in America.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/02/opinion/supreme-court-netchoice-free-speech.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/02/opinion/supreme-court-netchoice-free-speech.html)
This whole thing reeks of ‘a lot people are starting to pick up on the bullshit narratives being peddled about Canada’s indigenous populace so we’re just going to shut the whole conversation down’.
If it silences any voices, it’s not OK. We need to codify Freedom of Speech in the Constitution.
Here’s a crazy concept. How about we properly fund our schools and educate and give critical thinking skills so the population is smart enough to smell out BS and misinformation, instead of taking away our rights and marching closer and closer to 1984 by the day?
Wild ideas, I know.
So people can’t be trusted to discuss and speak about complex topics, but they are supposed to be trusted enough as sovereign citizens and vote for their representatives to govern by their consent?
I’m confused …
“Where excavations have taken place, no burials related to residential schools have been found.
In other words, there are no “missing children.” The fate of some children may have been forgotten with the passage of generations—forgotten by their own families, that is.“
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/blogs/no-evidence-of-mass-graves-or-genocide-in-residential-schools#:~:text=Where%20excavations%20have%20taken%20place,their%20own%20families%2C%20that%20is.
Criminalizing views is wild. We should probably be careful.
Why do so many in power seem to not understand nuance? Most things aren’t black or white. Forcing perspective either way does a disservice to everyone, yet this seems to be a shockingly popular narrative. Why? We need civilized debate and discussion about complex matters. We need far less of this “believe this perspective or else” bullshit.
Why are so many so focused on groups rather than individuals? There were abhorrent people who were in charge at some residential schools and they did awful things, but there were most certainly abhorrent teachers or leaders in the general school system as well.
Look. I believe it’s important for facts to be acknowledged, the sentiment and spirit of this are not malignant. However, criminalizing thought would absolutely create not just resentment but hatred and it would be directed at the most vulnerable populations of indigenous people. This would be a terrible mistake and would set reconciliation back decades. We do not need to create reasons for people who are neutral towards one another change to actively start hating each other. Huge mistake.
As long as it has all the same defences as the current Holocaust denial laws and only then I can approve.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-319.html
Quote “Criminal Code (R.S.C., 1985, c. C-46)
Wilful promotion of antisemitism
(2.1) Everyone who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes antisemitism by condoning, denying or downplaying the Holocaust
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.
Marginal note:Defences
(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.
Marginal note:Defences — subsection (2.1)
(3.1) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2.1)
(a) if they establish that the statements communicated were true;
(b) if, in good faith, they expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds they believed them to be true; or
(d) if, in good faith, they intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of antisemitism toward Jews.” End quote.
I know a lot of folks feel strongly that the truth will always win out, and so making hateful speech illegal doesn’t matter. I know everyone here is aware that the residential school system was an evil thing, and the debate in this thread is all about why people should be forced to agree. Unfortunately, what will end up happening is that as time goes by people will forget or reduce the atrocities we committed.
A recent poll of Americans shows that 20% of young people believe the holocaust didn’t happen, compared with 0% of people aged 65+. [(See page 103)](https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf) The reality is that the residential school system is almost certainly the darkest stain on Canada’s history, but in terms of harm it can’t hold a candle to the holocaust. If 20% of young American adults are able to believe that the holocaust was fake only 80 years later, you had better believe that the residential school system will be forgotten about in the next 80 years if we do nothing to ensure people remember.
If the truth matters, we need to legislate it. If we want people to remember that we did a bad thing, we need to prevent people from muddying the waters.